What can we do to get out of your way?

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I’ve shared a bit about Danny Meyer (founder of Shake Shack, among other restaurants) before, as he has some amazing insights on leadership. In a recent podcast with Adam Grant, he shared a few more gems.

One in particular was a quote about hiring. Danny believes in hiring great people and then allowing them to be great. Specifically, he says:

“If you hire great people, get out of their way and let them succeed. Yes, give them the tools, but don’t do stupid things that make it harder to succeed.”

It’s easier said than done, but it can be fantastic. It’s very similar to the idea of never managing people who don’t need to be managed. If you hire someone amazing, then managing their every move seems like an awful idea. They should follow the core processes and procedures that you’ve set in place, but beyond that they should have the freedom to just get things done.

If you’re hiring someone for minimum wage at your fast food restaurant, then dictating their every move might be a good plan. However, if you’re paying a generous salary to an amazing employee, anything other than letting them be amazing is just going to hold everyone back.

Never manage people who don’t need to be managed

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I often see posts on Reddit that follow a similar path:

  • An employee works hard at their company.
  • They find new ways to do their job more efficiently.
  • Management decides to tighten down on exactly how they should do their job.
  • Things therefore become less efficient, they lose clients, and the employee quits.

While I certainly appreciate that processes exist for a reason and there are times to square things back up, when people are working hard to get things done it’s often best to stay out of their way. Ideally, employees should be lead, not managed.

In the case of GreenMellen, I don’t feel the need to “manage” anyone there (and if anyone from our team is reading this, I hope you agree and you’ll tell me if you don’t). Really, it comes back to a matter of trust. If I trust the people that work for us, it makes life better all the way around. We set parameters on what work needs to be done, values around how we work, and let the team decide how best to do it and when to work on it.

There’s certainly a need for people to be managed in many circumstances, but don’t try to manage those that don’t need to be managed in the first place.

What books do you like?

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Another great segment from the recent “Founders” episode about Sam Walton is related to finding ways to hire creative people. More specifically, how do you determine the creativity of someone during an interview? Here’s a bit from the show:

One of the best ways to find creative people is to ask a simple question.

What books do you like? I’ve never met a creative person in my life that didn’t respond with enthusiasm to a question about reading habits. Which books people read is not as important as the simple fact that they read at all. I’ve known many talented engineers who hated science fiction but loved, say, books on bird watching.

A blatant but often accurate generalization. People who are curious and passionate read. People who are apathetic and indifferent don’t.

I’ve found this to be true in my life as well, but he added an interesting twist about the specific books not mattering, and he’s right. I’ve never thought about it that way, but I find creative people are almost always avid readers, but their choice of books varies wildly. It’s simply that creative people tend to be eager to fill themselves with the creativity of others, and books are a great way to do that.

When you ask someone “what books do you like?”, the answer itself is relatively unimportant, with the real insight simply being the excitement with which the answer is delivered.

Founders shouldn’t be hireable

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As GreenMellen has grown over the years, one of the challenges that Ali and I have faced is figuring out what our roles should be at various stages. Early on it was easy; she was the designer and I was the developer. Once those roles were filled by others, where did that leave us?

It’s a question that has no simple answer, and we’ve done different things over the years. In a recent episode of the “Founders” podcast, host David Senra shared this regarding Thomas Edison:

“Really, the way I think about a founder is like you’re developing skills that you can’t hire for. You’re gonna hire for everything else, but you shouldn’t be hireable. And Edison wasn’t.”

More specifically, Edison is quoted as saying:

“I can hire mathematicians, but they can’t hire me.”

Over time, I’ve worked to build skills are more valuable for the company, but also trickier to define. My role now consists of a bit of CFO, some HR, some sales, and various things to keep the company running smoothly. Ali has a very similar (yet very different) list of her own. That list of items changes quite a bit for both of us, as we hire out the hireable skills, and work to develop the more challenging ones.

Becoming someone who “isn’t hireable” is a bit nerve-racking, but is likely the best way to lead a company.

Know, respect, trust

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We’ve all heard the saying that we buy things from people that we “know, like and trust”, and I agree with that. I’d much rather purchase something from someone that I know, who I find likable, and who I trust.

In recently reading the book “How Clients Buy“, the authors worded it slightly differently every time they said it, by saying “know, respect, trust” instead. It was clearly an intentional choice of words, so it got me thinking about why they chose to make the switch.

Like vs Respect

The words “like” and “respect” certainly overlap a lot, but there are some key differences. I think the big difference is in how you prefer to interact with someone. You can like someone for being fun and enjoyable to be with, whereas you respect someone for their capabilities, integrity, or accomplishments.

As I was trying to think about specific people in my life related to this, pretty much all of them fit both words; I like them and enjoy spending time with them, and I also respect what they do and how they think.

I had to go outside of my immediate circle to think of folks that only fit one criteria, but I see it like this:

  • There are politicians that I respect what they do, but I don’t really like them.
  • There are people I know that I really like because they’re goofy and funny, but I don’t really respect them.

It’s a fine line, for sure. I certainly will work to gain the “know, like and trust” from those around me, but swapping out “like” for “respect” makes it just a little closer to what it’s really all about.

Big egos that look small can be super valuable

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It take a big ego to run a big company, but most people aren’t fans of those with big egos. The solution? Keep your ego in check.

In an episode of the Passion & Pain podcast, they had David Senra on as a guest and David put it this way:

“I don’t think that you can build a great company without a giant ego. However, your ego should drive you, but should not be on public display.”

He was loosely quoting Walmart founder Sam Walton, who famously said:

“When we’re thinking small, that’s another thing we’re always on the lookout for: big egos. You don’t have to have a small ego to work here, but you’d better know how to make it look small, or you might wind up in trouble.”

Those with big egos will always be pushing hard, which is a great way to grow a large company. I tend to think my ego is fairly small, and that’s led to running a 9-person company after 15 years. Others have gotten much bigger, and some have completely flamed out from pushing too hard, and we’re quite pleased with the company we’ve built.

I agree with David that a big ego is likely necessary to build a big company, but the big ego can cause big problems if it’s not properly kept in check.

Make decisions before circumstances force them to be made

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March 2020 was a scary time to be a business owner. Things were still going well for us, but the future was very uncertain — for everyone!

Ali and I took some time that month to plot out two sets of scenarios for our business.

  1. Determining how long could we sustain the company if we lost x clients, or if recurring revenue dropped by a certain percent, or various other potential situations that COVID might cause.
  2. Setting “triggers” for various things to happen if things went very poorly. We’d dip into savings if scenario 1 hit, we’d lay off some of the team if scenario 2 hit, and a bunch of related ideas.

The plan was simply to be ready. If things went poorly business-wise because of COVID, we’d have already made the necessary decisions on how to handle the latest issue.

In his book “Clear Thinking“, author Shane Parrish offers that exact suggestion, saying:

A good position allows you to think clearly rather than be forced by circumstances into a decision. One reason the best in the world make consistently good decisions is they rarely find themselves forced into a decision by circumstances.

Our primary goal was to avoid hitting any of the trigger marks, which we were able to do. 2020 turned out to be a very solid year for us financially, so none of those actions had to be taken but it was comforting to know how we’d handle the most likely situations that could occur so we wouldn’t be “forced by circumstances into a decision”.

We can’t plan for everything that might happen, but making decisions before you’re in the middle of the circumstance gives some peace and helps insure clarity in the action that needs to be taken.

Movie tickets are sunk costs

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The idea of a “sunk cost” has always been interesting to me. I understand it rather well, but it often feels counter-intuitive. As a result, I love finding new ways to explain it to help me widen my understanding.

If you’re not familiar with the term, Wikipedia defines it as “a cost that has already been incurred and cannot be recovered.“

In other words, if you can’t get your time or money back, then don’t factor that into your decision of whether to keep going down the path you’re on. Seth Godin puts it this way:

“The thing you earned, that you depend on, that was hard to do–it’s a gift from your former self. Just because you have a law degree, a travel agency or the ability to do calligraphy in Cyrillic doesn’t mean that your future self is obligated to accept that gift.“

You should treat things as a gift from your past self, knowing that it’s your decision to accept or reject that gift, based on your current circumstances.

In his book “The Personal MBA“, Josh Kaufman offers up this analogy:

For example, if you purchase a movie ticket, you have the ability to occupy a seat in the theater, but you don’t have to if a better opportunity presents itself. When you purchase the ticket, all you’re purchasing is the right to exercise the Option to see the movie at the time specified—nothing more.

Understood properly, sunk costs can free you from things you feel like you “need” to do. If you have tickets to a show but the weather is bad and you’re feeling sick, you don’t need to go. The common thought is “I can’t waste the $25 that I spent on these tickets”, but the $25 is gone either way. You have two options:

  • The $25 is gone, and you can drag your sick self out in the weather and be miserable.
  • The $25 is gone, and you can stay home, stay warm, and get some rest.

It’s a shame to waste $25 like that, but that’s irrelevant to the decision at hand. This can apply to other things like hiring (“We need to let her go, but we’ve put so much effort into training her”) or reading (“This book is awful, but I’ve already put three hours into it”), but at the end of the day you just need to decide whether to accept the gift from your former self or not, and many times turning it down is the best thing you can do.

Authentic reach-outs

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I try to stay in touch with many people in my life, as relationships of all kinds are generally a great thing to have. I also notice when others reach out to me, which is always appreciated.

While there are a lot of people that I know I need to reach out to, I also use some tools to remind me. Over the years I’ve used “Nat” and “Dex”, and later “Nimble”, but now I just have a list in my notes app to go from.

What’s interesting to me is the authenticity level of people who reach out to me. Two in particular stand out:

Regular, authentic calls

There is one person that calls me roughly once a quarter to check in, and it’s always a great chat. He honestly wants to hear what’s going on, shares about himself, and follows up with an email (if need be) with anything we might have discussed.

Clearly just a name on list

There are others that clearly just have “check in with people” on their to-do list, so they hustle through it. A few years ago a colleague reached out separately to both Ali and I with a nice message. We both replied with some questions back to him to keep the conversation going but he never replied back at all. I have no doubt that he was just running through a list and had no real intention to honestly reconnect.

They can lead to more

It’s fantastic to me when one of these reach-outs can lead to more. There’s a guy I reached out to a couple months ago, having not spoken directly to him in about five years (other than a random LinkedIn comment from one of us), so catching back up was great. From there, we played a round of golf together, he joined us later for an evening at Topgolf, and I’ll be on his podcast in the near future.

That’s what “reaching out” is really about. It’s not just checking an item off a list, but really trying to reconnect with people that you’ve met in the past that you like and respect.

It’s something that I’ll continue to do, and I’ll also always be pleased when someone else takes the time to authentically reconnect with me.

How we work with our clients

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Over the years we’ve refined our approach in working with clients to help make sure the relationship is solid, successful, and mutually enjoyable. As we’ve honed that approach, we’ve come up with 11 items that explain how the relationship will work.

I hope this list helps you in two ways:

  1. It will give you a better idea of what it would be like to work with GreenMellen for your marketing.
  2. It may inspire you to create a similar list for your company.

The items in this list are similar to our contract, with pieces that protect our firm but also pieces to help protect our clients. I found this to be a great way to share some of the big items in conversational language to get everyone on the same page.

With no further adieu, let’s dig in.

1 – We work for your clients

Successful marketing means speaking to your potential clients in a way that positively affects them. Your desires for particular colors or content are not as important as your audience’s perspective, because you are not the end user of your marketing. They are. Final decisions are always yours (see #3), but we expect you to provide productive feedback that is aimed at our collective goals (see #9), not things that you “like to see”.

2 – We treat each other with respect

We’re excited to work with you! Our process is proven and works well, but there are still points where disagreements may come up. We welcome those opposing views but they must remain respectful. If disagreements come up, they must always focus on the issue and the goals, and never on the person. Mutual respect is required, and item #11 ensures it is.

3 – Final decisions are yours

Related to treating each other with respect (#2), all final decisions are yours. We will push for what we think is right, and we will provide solid reasons behind what we say, but this is a project that you own and all tie-breakers fall to you.

4 – We treat the internet with respect

We are stewards of the internet, and treat all internet users with respect. There are plenty of marketing techniques that are legal but amoral, and we will not engage in any of those. This includes things such as deceptive language and buying email lists to spam potential customers. If it’s an ethical gray area, we avoid it completely.

5 – No guarantees

There are never guarantees with marketing. We have vast amounts of experience and data to ensure we’re making wise moves, but no outcome is ever absolutely certain. We will measure outcomes to the extent possible and suggest changes in approach as necessary to keep moving toward your goals. You should be skeptical about any marketing agency that guarantees a specific outcome.

6 – We will be honest with you

We’ll never hide the truth to convince you to take a certain path of action. If a campaign is not going well, we will share those numbers and work on ideas to get things going in the right direction. Data doesn’t lie, which is one of the reasons we rely on it heavily for decision-making.

7 – No magic wands

We won’t hide any of our practices from you. Even for complex things such as search engine optimization (SEO), we’ll show you exactly what we’re doing, why we’re doing it, and what we expect the outcome to be. There is no magic sauce with marketing, and you should run away from any firm that claims there is.

8 – We communicate consistently

Depending on your project, there may be a lot of required communication. You need to read what we send you and respond in an appropriate amount of time. Because you can expect us to do the same. Most of this communication will be via email, for the benefit documenting our conversations and for future clarity of what was said.

9 – You will provide productive feedback

Related to working for your clients (#1), these marketing efforts aren’t aimed toward making you happy, but are aimed at getting results. All feedback should be toward that goal. Do not ask us to “make it darker” or “make the logo bigger” unless you can also explain how that would create a better outcome for your end user. We will do the same for you. This isn’t about opinions; it’s about being effective.

10 – You will own everything

We work to make sure everything is in your control. Per our contracts, the final output we deliver to you is 100% owned by you once it is paid in full. If we build a website for you, it will be on WordPress so you have full ownership of it. This is compared to a platform like Squarespace or Wix where you are subject to the health and whims of that company forever. Your website will be hosted somewhere you control, and we encourage you to keep it in your control in the future. Any strategy or copywriting we do for you is yours to do with as you please. You paid for it, you keep it.

11 – You aren’t stuck with us and we aren’t stuck with you

We will never ask you to sign a long-term contract. Some projects may have a contracted length of up to approximately six months, but all ongoing work is month-to-month. If you feel that we aren’t meeting your expectations, you can leave at any time (also noting item #10). Conversely, if we feel you aren’t putting in the necessary work to move things forward, or if you treat any of our staff with disrespect, we can end the relationship at any time as well.

It was really pretty fun putting this list together! My attempt was to be incredibly straight and clear, and I hope that came across. I got this idea from a law firm that we work with who did an amazing job with a similar list, and perhaps this will inspire you to create something similar for your company.

If you have thoughts or disagreements about anything on the list, leave a comment and let me know.